Fiddle and Alternative Strings Forum

Hi y'all,

I am in interested in taking up the violin. The only proviso I have is that the violin I purchase ought to be vegan; that is, free of any animal products (e.g. purely synthetic glues/varnishes used in the violin construction as opposed to those that are animal derived, bows made of synthetic materials as opposed to horse hair). Do you guys know of any places that make/sell such violins? (In fact I have already sourced some such bows (Incredibows: http://www.incredibow.com/)). If not, would it be possible to specially order such a violin from someplace?

Many thanks, and hope I've posted this in the right place.

David

Why?

I think it'd be a lot easier to get a violin that has a documented materials provenance from animals that had died a natural death.

Sorry, weekend carnivore here.

I suppose you could make one out of clay...

Hi everyone,

Thank you very much for the replies and encouragement. I am a vegan and as such I would prefer to play a violin that was constructed without any animal products, regardless of how or why the animal used in the animal product in question was killed. I am aware that the benefits of using animal-based glues are numerous; it would be wonderful if there were a vegan alternative as well.

@Emma: thanks for the thread links to those violins constructed by invigo, they look quite amazing! I'll see if I can contact invigo via email.

@FiddleDoug: you raise some interesting questions. I am concerned with the moral aspect of using animals for our own purposes, and so this is my primary motivation for seeking a vegan violin. I certainly agree that there are environmental implications to consider in all our choices as well.

I plan on continuing researching and emailing some violin makers to test the feasibility of a vegan violin option.

Thanks again everyone.

I'm not at all sure one can find a commercial violin not constructed with hide glue and be sure of it.  I have purchased violins from eastern Europe that turned out to be assembled with white glue.  I don't know how to easier determine that a violin is assembled that way.

I don't know what vegan's use and don't use.  Need to consider the finish as well, which has lots of organics in it.  Eggs can be used in finishes on some instruments.

You could go electric with a solid body and have one made with wood glue.

I understand your feeling of not harming animals. I don't eat meat, I feel that I am as much a vegan as some, but I raise a dozen or so chickens, they run free, eat organic feed and they are like pets, they lay eggs, I eat the eggs.
     If you get really good horse hair, its like cutting your own hair.  They don't kill the horses to get it.  And  at $1,000 a pound I bet they take really good care of the horses. So I don't really see an issue there. 
   The only non nice thing is the glue, although aminals do die naturally and dead animals are sold for the use of making glue, I would guess the main part of it is made from the by products of killing animals for meat.

  Trees are beautiful I hate to see a tree cut down even for violins. I also burn wood for heat and I look at some of the beautiful oak grain and think , no not this one. But if I did I would have a huge pile of spilt oak sitting there that I would never get to do anything with.

  Carbon fiber and epoxy , the making of the materials is probably more damaging to the environment then we would like to think.

  In a well thought out world with an intelligent population of humans we could make violins with trees that fell down and animals that died naturally,  but we are humans so we don't .
  So in the end most of us make some sort of compromises to live in the world we live in.
  Perhaps the beauty and happiness that you can give to others with your music can compensate for the life of the animal that was used for the glue. Good luck.

Not every violin has egg white (or honey, which sometimes shows up in that recipe) under the varnish. I suspect the ones that do have such a layer of vernice bianca are in the minority. Shellac, on the other hand, is pretty hard to get away from, and is an insect product. Oil varnish, typically made from drying vegetable oil and plant resins, is sometimes spun as more desirable than spirit varnish, which usually contains shellac. As a result, some vendors may be vague about their instruments' varnish. An instrument which has been repaired may have a bit of shellac in its makeup; an instrument whose finish has been retouched will almost certainly have some.

Soap is often used to lubricate tuning pegs. You may use a palm-oil based soap, but chances are slim that you can find out what was used on any given violin.

I'm an occasional carnivore, but I still favor the idea of treading lightly. For me, animal hide glue is a way to use scraps that might otherwise have been discarded.

They don't call it the devil's box without reason. You may not have to sell your entire soul to be able to play, but be aware that along the way Old Scratch may get to clip a few coupons from it.

Stray thought.

The hide glue used in a violin is of two strengths, IIRC.  Normal strength is used for most of the joints.  A diluted hide glue is used to glue the top on.
It's done that way to make that joint easier to break if the instrument needs to be repaired.  It might be easier to find a vegetable glue for that purpose than one exactly like hide glue for the other joints.  If you did use something like the vegan glue I pointed out, you would want to dilute it or use it very sparingly to glue the top on.

Also:  If you were to do a carved out back, a key aspect is the internal volume of the violin- whatever shape it is has to enclose the same amount of air as a normal violin if it's going to sound good tuned to standard pitch.

Also, since chinrests and shoulder rests are designed for normal shaped violins, modifications to the standard design could make standard ones unusable- at least without modifications.

Also, if you change very many things, it probably won't sound like a standard violin, and possibly won't be as loud or project as well.
It could sound pleasant, even quite good, but expect a fairly different sound.  A few years ago I got to play a fiddle with walnut sides and back and a cedar top.  It sounded quite nice... I wouldn't have minded having one-- but it definitely wasn't a standard violin sound.

Also- changes in design and materials COULD make the fiddle heavier than normal and as such unpleasant to play for long periods of time.

Moderately off-topic:

While I would never go down the whole vegan lifestyle thing myself, I will say one thing for veganism: the movement really has made a major contribution to the average person in the street knowing a lot more about just what does go into the stuff we eat, wear and utilise.

From beetles in lipsticks to fish in real ale and cows in violins – it's often thanks to the vegan movement this knowledge ever made it out of industry circles.

Here endeth the off-topicness.

Good luck with your search. A quality electric may be your best bet.

... or horses, or pigs...

If you collect, eventually you will run into a violin, viola or cello that IS a pig.

I wouldn't worry, they don't taste very good anyway. Also those violins made out of meat sound really unresonant.

Sorry, couldn't resist!